34 Comments
User's avatar
An American Writer & Essayist's avatar

Interesting post. I like the idea of the Holy Roman Empire, a decentralized entity of multiple kingdoms, duchys, counties, and free cities made up of distinct peoples.

Chandra A. Hardy's avatar

You like the idea of choking on Nazi dick. Did you switch your font to Times New Roman yet? 😂🤣

The Brothers Krynn's avatar

Could not agree more! I always tell people I'm not white but a Franc. One thing about being in France is that it is collectivist on the point of our ethne. So that this has only sharpened my sense of belonging and love for this.

Best essay on this topic I've ever read

The Otter's avatar

Thanks, I am glad my words could inspire that love for your people.

The Brothers Krynn's avatar

They did. I love my people and even when they misbehave I still feel protective of them. They are my brothers and sisters.

This is something I won’t lie I don’t feel for all people. I’m fond of the Slavs but as I’m not a Slav I don’t have the same instinct.

I do hope you’ve the same love for your people.

Silesianus's avatar

This is what I believe is the intuition of most Europeans which arises naturally, whereas modern Anglo discourse has to support itself with the term "white", while at the same time erasing idiosyncracies of Americans themselves. Racialism tends to flatten national and ethnic differences, and the discourse that rests on that foundation is still part of the liberal framework. True post-liberal thought will require recognition of ethnic plurality within European civilisational cluster, but I also believe that the current political framework has to be redefined, adoption of existing treaties and structures risks contamination of the principle with holdover proceduralism and bureaucratic rule, which is antithetical to any subsidiarity.

The new American strategy and refocusing on nation states (as the largest viable political entites capable of expressing monoethnic cultural cohesion) gives us an indication of what we ought to expect going forward for Europe as a whole, if it is to survive - a strong alliance of culturally-bound states with recognition of those bonds, and as quite correctly stated, economic interdependence as a productive engine for the whole, not subordination to a single country as the ultimate pinnacle of manufacturing.

Leo van Lechistan's avatar

Fascinating. Never heard of Althusius before. Well-articulated, overall. Too many rightwingers don’t grasp race is a category of modernity, abstract and totalizing, and a consequence of white, blacks, Asians, and indigenous New World tribes being brought together en masse like never before post-Columbus, which also was right around philosophical modernity and the Enlightenment really starts to get going. They’re merely and unwittingly reacting against the left’s appropriation of race as an abstract category with their own abstract and totalizing use of it that doesn’t take into account that Europeans/whites were always ethnically varied and never united except by imposition of some sort of imperial force, Rome or the US’s post-WW2 order.

So do you expect national identities to disintegrate into local and regional ones? I’m not so sure that’s on the immediate horizon. Here in the US, people still identify as Americans or racial tribes and not by the states or regions like “I’m foremost a New Englander” or “I’m a Wisconsinite before an American” like they did prior to Reconstruction after the Civil War. I’m not sure that doesn’t happen without a ton of political turmoil that no one, in their right mind, should take lightly and recklessly crave.

The Otter's avatar

I don’t ever expect anything good to happen, but I do think a regional federated model would help varied groups retain their ethnic identity while cooperating with differing groups. The managerial class would need to facilitate alliances instead of trying to reprogram society into a more streamlined social order, which is essentially what we’ve been subjected to since the post-war.

I agree we shouldn’t crave this change necessarily because it would be painful to transition, but I think it’s expedient to reduce global dependency on international trade. I think we are coming to see Adam Smith was wrong about global free markets guaranteeing resilience.

As I see it, it would be less painful to begin this process now instead of waiting for things to fragment or slowly collapse, which imo is a very likely outcome, far more likely than the Silicon Valley pipe dream of AGI saving our skins.

Boulis's avatar

What a brilliant piece! Thank you for introducing me to the thought of Althusius. It feels like I’ve been searching for him for a long time without knowing it! I do fear that the migrant situation has passed the failsafe point though…do you really think Europe can recover from these destructive policies?

The Otter's avatar

I like to remain cautiously optimistic. The tides are definitely turning on the issue and it’s not too late.

Swarthy European Nationalism's avatar

How is this brilliant just a bunch of strawmans and over simplifications.

The Otter's avatar

I built my argument on philosophical grounds despite it being polemic in nature.

Corregidor de Orgaz's avatar

This political proposal is close to carlist fueros, catholic subsidiarity. And the Habsburg Spain.

The Otter's avatar

I am definitely influenced by pre-enlightenment and counter-enlightenment Catholic thought.

Mangla_96k's avatar

Thoughts on it as follows:

Disclosure – Sikh of Jatt background.

• Hard lines such as race exist for some political purpose

https://www.amren.com/news/2022/03/the-racial-ideology-of-empire/

• White elites have had no problem competing vs each other using non-white proxies

• Whiteness on the margins is determined by Christian religion

• White supremacy makes no sense without Patriarchy

 Patriarchy meaning ownership of white women.

 Otherwise, you get racist simps and race mixing Nazis.

 Certain traits such as hygiene, trust, and co-operation are civilizational adaptive

 Cultivating these traits among foreign people without hard eugenics is untenable

Worship Weapons, Lift Weights.

ਅਕਾਲ

Swarthy European Nationalism's avatar

Critical race theory isn't a correction. The whole point of critical race theory is to destroy the concept of race by destroying whiteness which is what they believe created the concept of race to begin with and therefore oppression. Critical race theory is part of the post racial society of Liberalism

The Otter's avatar

It can be seen an overcorrection from a sociohistoric standpoint as something that occurs after the social unrest of the civil rights movement.

Joanna Martin's avatar

Categorizing objects, animals, people, etc.:

The male Satin Bowerbirds of Australia build elaborate nesting sites which they decorate with blue objects they spotted while flying around specifically looking for blue objects: Blue feathers from other birds, blue flowers, blue bottle caps, blue pen covers, blue food wrappers, etc. To them, the only relevant characteristic is color.

We can't reasonably say that the skin color of humans is irrelevant - it does have relevance to medical issues. For example, it is said that the darker the color of the skin, the less able the body is to get Vitamin D from the sun. So it is said that black people typically suffer from Vitamin D deficiency. Pale skinned people suffer more from skin cancers because their skin lacks the protection from the sun which melanin provides. So skin color would be relevant to physicians.

What IS the primary relevant characteristic of humans? CULTURE, not skin color. John Jay wrote of culture in Federalist Paper No. 2 (5th para) 1787:

"With equal pleasure I have as often taken notice that Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people--a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs, and who, by their joint counsels, arms, and efforts, fighting side by side throughout a long and bloody war, have nobly established general liberty and independence." https://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/fed02/

It is CULTURE which unites - or divides - People. But there isn't a "white" culture: A WASP [White Anglo Saxon Protestant] is very different from white skinned Germans, Swedes, Slavs, Italians, Greeks, etc. An educated WASP is very different from an uneducated WASP.

If people have a common morality which is based on Reality, they can peacefully co-exist. C.S. Lewis shows in "The Abolition of Man" that there is a common Morality.

Swarthy European Nationalism's avatar

Culture doesn't unite anything actually. People of different races will just fight over who the real people of that given culture are. For example Christians of different races fight over who the real Christians are and black Christians for example tend to believe white Christians are fake Christians and are satanic.

In group preference makes it impossible for different races to get along. White people will never be fully united either but they can get along far better.

Culture is fleeting and changes over time anyways. Race is who you are and something you can't change and that's why it will always be most important

The Otter's avatar

There are plenty of historic counter examples to your assertions though, especially Empires, such as Rome, who gave culture primacy.

Swarthy European Nationalism's avatar

Yeah but none of them good counter examples. Rome fell at it's most diverse and Rome was an Italian supremacist society. That's what it's "culture" was till it just became so diverse it no longer could sustain itself. Sub-race the Italian sub race was the "primacy".

That's the only way you can have a society like that work for any length of time. You need the majority group to be dominant. America was kinda like that with White people as a whole. America always had some diversity even if they weren't always officially citizens but White people where originally the dominant group. Now that is no longer the case and diversity is getting out of control and of course America is having some serious issues and declining

The Otter's avatar

Rome didn’t fall because of diversity. I haven’t seen a convincing academic argument for what you just posited, just strawmanning and vague claims on X and /pol/. Also, you’ve accepted my framing by considering Italians to be a distinct race, I agree with that notion!

Swarthy European Nationalism's avatar

It may not be convincing to you because you want to believe what you want to believe but it's a reality that Rome fell at it's most diverse. Academia is a woke liberal cis pool at this point so I find that hilarious that you appeal to academia. Of course they're going to obfuscate that reality. Gets in the way of their diversity agenda. I mean they also want to abolish whiteness. Maybe you're not as anti liberal as you think you are if you're appealing to liberal academia and you also believe in their premise of abolishing whiteness

I find that claim quite ironic when literally this whole article is one big straw man lol

....But thats not just your framing. That's my framing as well that Italians are a distinct sub race but of the main race of White People. I want Italy to stay Italian. I don't want Europe to be one big blob of diverse white people in every country. Just how I don't want it to become non-white by importing all these non-whites. That is the issue with America that we are all diverse White people but that's all we have left. Italians can still be a unique non diverse White people. The non Whites should go and if there's any non Italian Europeans in Italy they should go too back to their European country too.

All in all we're clearly not going to agree on this topic any further than the small agreement you pointed out that we have. I guess we can agree to disagree on the rest.

Btw here's a substack about Rome that you may find interesting or maybe you won't. Either way I find it far more compelling than anything else ive seen on the topic of Rome. If you disagree that's fine we can agree to disagree on that too

https://keithwoods.pub/p/ethnopolitics-in-the-roman-empire

The Otter's avatar

You don’t have to be woke to grasp a fundamental principle of “correlation doesn’t equal causation” before throwing around accusations of strawmanning, etc. I mean this with as little offense as possible, but there’s simply nothing you can offer me in response when you aren’t even capable of meeting me on the same playing field. I stopped reading when you considered your first paragraph to be evidently worth typing out as a response.

Nor am I arguing for naïve multiculturalism, and neither is there is a valid classification of “sub races”, so perhaps establish that theory before coming to me citing Keith Woods as someone I couldn’t possibly know about and worth me spending time reading, when his content clearly hasn’t improved your ability to reason.

Chandra A. Hardy's avatar

White people will get along far better?! Um, have you studied global history or even current events. World War I, II? Do you read news, for fuck’s sake? Ever heard of Russia and Ukraine?!

Ma'ats Son's avatar

"Paradoxically, the ambitions of post-racialism have only heightened racial awareness while fundamentally reshaping our understanding of race. The overcorrection manifested in the form of critical theory, and governance was reframed once more to accommodate this backlash, gaining the new privilege of becoming the arbiter of equity and the corrector of historical racial grievances."

The problem is this so called "awareness" is political manipulation - as in not organically rooted

Swarthy European Nationalism's avatar

Who ever said White culture was monolithic? And who ever aid that Whites were all united? You create a straw man and knock the straw man down and act like you've proven some sort of point lol

Europe is the White race but there are a bunch of sub races within the white race and yes they have their differences. Just like a family is all a given family but there are differences within that family as well. They don't all look and act the same, nor do they have the same views. Nor are they all united as well.

The Otter's avatar

It’s not a strawman, but a common thread in dissident right discourse, which I felt needed to be addressed instead of taken as an article of faith.

Chandra A. Hardy's avatar

Just a reminder:

WHITE MALES OF THE RIGHT WING ARE THE GREATEST DOMESTIC AND GLOBAL TERRORIST THREAT

Cody Balmer

Steven Bannon

Richard Bilodeau

Donnie Ray Birchfield

Vance Boelter

Michael David Booth

Robert Eugene Brashers

Jonathan Braun

Michael Paul Brown

Brian Anthony Browning

Zachery Ty Bryan

Stanley Burkhardt

Jesse Butler

Billy Joel Cagle

Jesse Calhoun

Robert Card

Michail Chkhikvishvili

Logan Chrisinger

Ian Cleary

Joshua Wayne Cole

Adam Coy

James Craig

Thomas Matthew Crooks

Joseph Czuba

Joseph James DeAngelo

Travis Decker

Austin Robert Drummond

Michael Duarte

Nigel Max Edge

Andrew Edward

Max Ehrich

Carmine Faino

Jonathan Felkel

Jeffrey M. Ferguson

Mark Geralds

Mark Raymond Gibbon

Nathan Gingles

Benjamin Glaze

Sean Grayson

Thomas Lee Gudinas

Aaron Gunches

Grant Hardin

Jake Haro

Sam Haskell Jr.

Shotsie Michael Buck Hayes

Pete Hegseth

Donald Jamesbrown Henry

Donald Henson

Rex Heuermann

Den Hollander

Desmond Holly

Guy House

Damien Hurstel

Phoenix Ikner

Joshua Jahn

Eddie James

Bryan Frederick Jennings

Andrew Paul Johnson

Richard Gerald Jordan

Edward Kelley

David Kingsley

Bryan Kohberger

Lorenz Kraus

Gonzalo Leon Jr.

Joe Lewis

Randy Madden

Danny Masterson

RJ May

James Andrew McGann

Gerrick Merrifield

Justin Mohn

Kenneth Leland Morgan

Robert Morris

Christopher Moynihan

Hunter Nadeau

Rinaldo Nazzaro

Harold Wayne Nichols

Andrew Palmore

Robert A. Parks

David Brian Pearce

Tom Phillips

David Pittman

Dyllon Redfern

Peter Riera

Jonathan Rinderknecht

Gavin Rivers

Robert Roberson

Tommy Robinson

Tyler Robinson

Glen Edward Rogers

Wess Roley

Nicholas Rossi

Ryan Routh

Brandon Russell

Matthew James Ruth

Thomas Jacob Sanford

Christopher Scholtes

Stephen Schwarzman

Stephan Smerk

Shawn Stines

Robert Sullivan

Andrew Tate

Tanner Christopher Thomas

Donald Trump

Travis Turner

Ross Ulbricht

Sebastian Van Stockum

John Kevin Taylor

C.S. Venkatakrishnan

Dustin Walker

Ryan Wedding

Eliyahu ‘Eli’ Weinstein

Robin Westman

Connor Weston

Patrick Joseph White

Jared Wise

Austin Wolf

Edward Zakrzewski

These are just the 2025 headlines.

Chandra A. Hardy's avatar

White males of the right wing can’t distinguish between mothers who are biological females and trans women. I think that tells us all we need to know about their level of intellect.

Chandra A. Hardy's avatar

Here’s a certain type of white guy: from the South, has an accent, hates pedophiles and is liberal! Just a reminder that white people are not a monolith and “white” is not synonymous with “Nazi” or “pedophile,” but those previous two ARE synonymous. MAGA are the dumbest of the white people globally and that’s saying a lot about a race of people that were pretty fucking dumb to start:

https://youtu.be/cpCu4ZYv4n0?si=ooNqJkaKT0vgRs0k

Chandra A. Hardy's avatar

I can’t handle the pseudo-intellectualism in this piece, so I couldn’t make it to the end. I’ve never met more fucked up people on the planet than white people (and I’ve traveled the globe extensively.

Muhammad Ali, the GOAT, said white people are the devil and he was never wrong about that fact. We are about to find out just how devilish with the release of the Epstein files.

I’m white, I come from white people and birthed two white sons. But still not white enough for Nazi misogynist pedophiles that are all over the comment sections of your pieces.

My Mayflower descended mother birthed, nursed and raised me. My Quaker abolitionist and suffragist ancestors from New England fought in every war since the American Revolution.

My antifascist World War II veteran grandfather fought the Nazis. And then he worked for Truman’s State Department/Foreign Service/U.S. Information Service in Monrovia, Liberia, West Africa.

I write about all of it in my daily publication that covers AmeriKKKan history not taught in school.

None of us “nigger lovers” are white enough for Nazis which I love! 🤣😂